Sunday, August 31, 2014

Was Jesus a real person? A growing number of scholars think not.

Courtesy of Alternet:  

Most antiquities scholars think that the New Testament gospels are “mythologized history.” In other words, they think that around the start of the first century a controversial Jewish rabbi named Yeshua ben Yosef gathered a following and his life and teachings provided the seed that grew into Christianity. 

At the same time, these scholars acknowledge that many Bible stories like the virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, and women at the tomb borrow and rework mythic themes that were common in the Ancient Near East, much the way that screenwriters base new movies on old familiar tropes or plot elements. In this view, a “historical Jesus” became mythologized

For over 200 years, a wide ranging array of theologians and historians—most of them Christian—analyzed ancient texts, both those that made it into the Bible and those that didn’t, in attempts to excavate the man behind the myth. Several current or recent bestsellers take this approach, distilling the scholarship for a popular audience. Familiar titles include Zealot by Reza Aslan and How Jesus Became God by Bart Ehrman. 

But other scholars believe that the gospel stories are actually “historicized mythology.” In this view, those ancient mythic templates are themselves the kernel. They got filled in with names, places and other real world details as early sects of Jesus worship attempted to understand and defend the devotional traditions they had received. 

The notion that Jesus never existed is a minority position. Of course it is! says David Fitzgerald, author of Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All. For centuries all serious scholars of Christianity were Christians themselves, and modern secular scholars lean heavily on the groundwork that they laid in collecting, preserving, and analyzing ancient texts. Even today most secular scholars come out of a religious background, and many operate by default under historical presumptions of their former faith.

The article then lays out five somewhat compelling reasons to believe that Jesus was made up out of whole cloth. 

1. No first century secular evidence whatsoever exists to support the actuality of Yeshua ben Yosef. In the words of Bart Ehrman: “What sorts of things do pagan authors from the time of Jesus have to say about him? Nothing. As odd as it may seem, there is no mention of Jesus at all by any of his pagan contemporaries. There are no birth records, no trial transcripts, no death certificates; there are no expressions of interest, no heated slanders, no passing references – nothing. 

2. The earliest New Testament writers seem ignorant of the details of Jesus’ life, which become more crystalized in later texts. Paul seems unaware of any virgin birth, for example. No wise men, no star in the east, no miracles. Historians have long puzzled over the “Silence of Paul” on the most basic biographical facts and teachings of Jesus. Paul fails to cite Jesus’ authority precisely when it would make his case. What’s more, he never calls the twelve apostles Jesus’ disciples; in fact, he never says Jesus HAD disciples –or a ministry, or did miracles, or gave teachings. 

3. Even the New Testament stories don’t claim to be first-hand accounts. We now know that the four gospels were assigned the names of the apostles Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, not written by them. To make matter sketchier, the name designations happened sometime in second century, around 100 years or more after Christianity supposedly began. 

 4. The gospels, our only accounts of a historical Jesus, contradict each other 

5. Modern scholars who claim to have uncovered the real historical Jesus depict wildly different persons. They include a cynic philosopher, charismatic Hasid, liberal Pharisee, conservative rabbi, Zealot revolutionary, nonviolent pacifist...etc..

This may be one of my all time favorite subjects, and it is nice to revisit it once in awhile and take break from all of the political stuff that takes up so much of my time. 

My personal opinion, going back to my teen years, is that essentially EVERYTHING about Jesus is manufactured to sell a product, much like Ronald McDonald or the Jolly Green Giant.

However I have been surprised to read from various scholars, most recently Reza Aslan, that the current consensus is that Jesus was an actual personae though virtually everything the Bible says about him is bullshit.

So I'm interested, what do you think?

33 comments:

  1. Anonymous4:39 AM

    I think of the Christian Jesus like I think of the American Paul Bunyan; there likely was a man who lived with that name, but just as Paul Bunyan wasn't 20 feet tall and could clear an entire forest in a day, Jesus of Nazareth never walked on water or arose from the dead. As the expert point out, there are so many similar myths of virgin births, caves, and resurrected gods floating all over the Mediterranean that predate the Jesus myth.

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    1. Balzafiar8:47 AM

      In my view Jesus, if he actually lived, was just another man who could influence the masses with his personality and/or conviction, along the lines of Billy Graham and the more modern-day huckster and con-man Joel Osteen and his grifting ilk. The gullible are just lined up in droves asking to be fleeced. It's disgusting.

      Delete
  2. Beldar JC Conehead4:55 AM

    Don't be smug. Gryphen.

    Of course, Jeebus was real. If there was no Jeebus, there couldnt be a Santa Claus. And if there was no Santa Claus, there couldnt be Christmas. And since Labor Day marks the official kick-off of the Christmas holiday season, you surely can't deny the existence of Christmas.

    Ergo, Jeebus was a real person.

    Plus, one of His sandals and a photocopy of His last Sumerian driver's license is on display at the fabulous CreationarianisMusium in Harelip, Kentucky.

    Let's not revisit this debate any time soon, ok? Case closed!

    ReplyDelete
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    1. :D
      And the debate hardly matters, as the harm and brainwashing damage has been thoroughly accomplished -- the myth can accept no analysis.

      Same with SP -- it wouldn't matter if she disappeared this instant -- her spewed crap has infected the uneducated to justify their beliefs in all ...isms).

      If Trig's birth story is unquestioned, how is Jesus' birth story going to fare? The un-evolved are programed for certainly -- at all cost. We poke them at our peril.

      Let the poking begin.
      Good post, Gryph.

      Delete
    2. Anonymous8:44 PM

      Don't listen to what Beldar is saying, my bible toting friends. All you need to do is read what the good book says at 1 Corinthians 13:11.

      Delete
  3. Anonymous5:39 AM

    But wait! Noted felon and erstwhile exterminator Tom DeLay was just on CNN, inexplicably, to repeat the canard that the Perry indictment is political.
    Then he said he was working hard to get Christians more involved in politics!
    If a renowned statesman like Tom DeLay says he believes in the Christ religion, who are you, "Gryphen," to think otherwise?

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  4. Anonymous5:51 AM

    One theory is that Jesus was actually Julius Caesar. Note the initials. Francesco Carotta wrote that t Julius Caesar was the historical Jesus, that the Gospel is a rewriting of Roman historical sources, and that Christianity developed from the cult of the deified Caesar. The Orpheos Bakkikos depicts the funerary wax effigy of Caesar.

    He presents facts and proofs for his theories. IMO they actually make more sense than 'magic and supernatural dreams' , 'being born of a virgin' , etc.

    He has a large following in Germany, but Christian scholars and historians prefer to acknowledge their made up chronological history.

    In my mind...it puts a whole new meaning to "render unto Caesar, what is Caesar's".



    ReplyDelete
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    1. Anonymous11:38 AM

      Wow, very interesting! Thanks for posting your comment.

      And thanks Gryphen!

      Delete
  5. Anonymous5:57 AM

    Facts and religion don't mix

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    1. Leland7:48 AM

      If by "facts" you mean scientifically defined facts then I can agree with you.

      However, if you mean "facts" as defined by religious people, they would TOTALLY disagree with you.

      Delete
  6. There is an interesting podcast at iTunes U. Title is "From Israelite to Jew" by Michael Satlow. Satlow teaches at Brown University.
    Bottom line is that the Bible has been under rewrite from the beginning. It didn' t become "Holy" until after first century CE.
    Well worth listening to the Podcast.
    BTW, Jesus and his brother James were both mentioned by the first century historian named Josephus.

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    1. Josephus was born 37 years after Jesus' death. That would make him writing about anything at about 57 years after the death. Somehow anyone being mentioned by him 57 years after their death does not seem like proof.

      Delete
  7. Bill F6:16 AM

    The Teagelicals believe the story of the birth of Jesus but do not believe President Obama was born in Hawaii. It makes one wonder what is the future of our country when such people can have such influence.

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  8. kraftysue6:41 AM

    I have a 13yr old grandson whose mother is Catholic. She is insisting he take Confirmation classes but he is resisting. He is getting a lot of pressure so I talked to him privately and asked what is his problem with Confirmation. He replied that in his studies, all of the great wars and conflicts in history have been caused by one religion trying to take over another and if one were to believe the Bible, the earth is only 6000 yrs old and yet his science classes say the Earth is 300,000-400,000 years old. In order to get some advice to get some of this pressure off I spoke with a local priest for suggestions . He said as a man of faith, even he has some questions and as science progresses it is making religion more difficult. He said if science ever gets proof that there is no life after death, religion will be screwed.

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    1. Anonymous10:05 AM

      Religion aside, I'd place the boy in a different school if his science teacher is telling him that the world is but 300,000-400,000 years old!

      Delete
  9. Anonymous7:23 AM

    It should be noted that Catholics are supposed to believe in TWO virgin births. Mary was also supposedly born to a virgin. She is the immaculate conception.

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    1. Mary's Immaculate Conception isn't about being born of a virgin, it's about Mary being born without Original Sin.

      Delete
  10. Anonymous7:25 AM

    Apollonius of Tyana.

    Diabolical mimicry aka Pre-mimicry.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Anonymous7:29 AM

    To me, it makes no more sense to believe that Jesus was a real person, but that everything written about him was bullshit, than it does to believe that everything written about him was true but that he didn't exist! I simplify things by believing he never existed -- since there is zero historical evidence that he did -- and therefore everything written about him is bullshit.

    Just as with Zeus, Jupiter, Ra, etc. Scholars don't waste any time trying to prove THEY really existed in some form, now, do they.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. Semi-High Priest Beldar J Conehead7:52 AM

      "Just as with Zeus..."

      Dear Sir and/or Madam,

      You have a crossed a red line on a bridge too far! While you have correctly determined that Jesus, Jupiter and Ra are imaginary religious characters, it is also undeniable - because it can not be denied - that Zeus is the one true god.

      Non-believers and careless blasphemers denying Zeus's existence will be, it is written, turned into nondescript pebbles lining the holy latrines of Mt. Olympus! (What? You didn't think the gods went to the bathroom?)

      HEED THE WARNING!

      HAIL ALL-MIGHTY ZEUS!!!

      Delete
    2. Leland7:52 AM

      "Just as with Zeus, Jupiter, Ra, etc. Scholars don't waste any time trying to prove THEY really existed in some form, now, do they."

      Ah, but they do exist and did - in the minds of those who believe(d).

      Delete
    3. Balzafiar8:37 AM

      Well now, hold on there just a darned modicum of time, Semi-Demi-Ra BJC!

      You're clearly misinformed or an outright charlatan, so let me state some facts for you.
      1. It simply is not true that Zeus is the one true god. I can prove -- without any doubt at all -- that in Washington, D.C., Money is the one true god. All bow to the mighty Money! Especially when the Koch brothers are passing it out.

      2. There is an endless supply of non-descript pebbles just waiting to be pissed on. This is an on-going process practiced by the Priests of the Most High and Mighty Congress as well as the heads of many corporations, especially Wal-Mart.

      3. Some of the gods and priests do go to the bathroom, some just hang around the stalls pretending. Watch their feet for clues. If one foot is doing the understall shuffle they aren't there to take your confession; trust me on that.

      Delete
    4. "You're.. an outright charlatan..."

      Goodness gracious, great Balz a'fiar!

      Charlatan? Perhaps. But "outright" charlatan? NEVER!

      Other than that thinly veiled possible insult, your points are all well made and I stand corrected.

      Delete
    5. Balzafiar9:51 AM

      Outright Charlatan == Televangelist.

      OK, that's good to know, that you're not outright. Forthright is OK, but not outright.

      BTW, thank so much for outing me; I have tried to keep my real name -- Great Balz a'Fiar -- hidden, but now everyone will know. I've tried so hard to be discreet because it sounds so... well, pagan.

      Delete
  12. Anonymous9:11 AM

    Of course there is a Jesus! If there were no Jesus, then why would D-list reality TV star Bristol Palin have it in her ghost written scripts to scream out "Oh, Jesus, Oh, Jesus" when she is holding job interviews for her frequently vacant new baby daddy position candidates.

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    1. Balzafiar9:53 AM

      It's not a problem for her to scream that phrase except that people can hear her for blocks around.

      It scares the neighborhood pets, too.

      Delete
  13. Anonymous10:39 AM

    To prove how easy it is to fool the people and lead them in a "misdirection" just read 'The Big Fat Surprise' by Nina Teicholz. There is NO Mediterranean diet!!! The whole world is encouraged to eat it and the NIH and American Heart Association endorse it BUT it never existed. There is no population that ate it or created it- EVER! No research anywhere supports its efficacy.

    We have been sold a bill of goods about it and that saturated fats will ruin our heart and bodies. There is NO clinical research or evidence that supports that.

    We are fools if we can be duped again and again and we need to be grateful for people like Nina Tiecholz who dig for the non-truths that are shoved at us.

    Read Michael Lewis' Flash Boys where he exposes the "rigged stock market" of which we are all victims, all of us individuals with pensions etc.

    We have thought provoking people (all too few, but a big thanks for your work Gryphen) who are trying to save us from ourselves.

    Recognize them and support their efforts, including those seeking to dispel the Xtian and religious seekers who are busy destroying so much of our world.

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  14. Anonymous11:49 AM

    One thing I've always found interesting after hearing it on PBS and other places, is that it would have been extremely unusual during Jesus's time for a man his age to not be married or have kids- that his not being married would have been written about and would almost have needed to be explained as to WHY he was not married.

    Yet there is no mention of this, either.

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    1. Anonymous2:37 PM

      It's all explained in the Da Vinci Code...:).

      Delete
  15. Anita Winecooler4:20 PM

    I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, and had the pablum force fed to me from day one. The RCC doesn't rely on people actually reading their bibles, nor studying them. That the beauty of "belief". I remember them banning books, and for some reason, those books were sold out in the stores or there was a waiting list in the library.
    Anyway, I took it upon myself to read the Bible from cover to cover once, and was shocked at how different each "writer's" recall and telling of the stories were. The Apocrypha was the freakiest thing I ever read, but the whole point of the RCC was to keep bodies in the pews and tell people it's not what science tells us, it's what we believe that effects our lives now and in the hereafter.
    I was the one who questioned everything and got punished for it. I found this post extremely informative and the comments, for the most part, good ones. What I still don't get is if Jesus had siblings, how did Mary remain a Virgin and why aren't they mentioned? Did they perform miracles? If they existed at all, that is.

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  16. Anonymous12:04 AM

    Check out Richard Carrier's newest pair of books, "Proving History" and "On The Historicity Of Jesus", where he discusses the history and the probabilities of both mythicism and historicity.

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  17. Anonymous4:43 AM

    check out: Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus by Joseph Atwill

    ReplyDelete

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